Tuesday, February 10, 2009

Curing the Disease to Please

A commenter on yesterday's post asked: "Any advice on how a congenital NG can overcome his niceness in dealing with females?I mean without feeling,and therefore acting,awkward?"

Before I start answering this - note that I am not a pickup instructor, nor would I define myself as a PUA. All I can do is outline what I did (and learned) after getting dumped after a seven year long betaizing relationship to become succesful in the mating game.

The bad news is that a big part of becoming better is to "fake it 'till you make it". There is no need to become a true "bad boy" or even an "asshole". But, you are stuck in behavioral patterns - your "comfort zone" - and the only way out is to do things that do not seem "natural" to you. You will learn that what you think is "your true self" or your "personality" is actually just a conglomerate of habits, and that there are way more things you are capable of behind that narrow horizon of your current thinking. And no, this does not mean that you will (need to) start to become less ethical or moral - on the contrary (remember how being "nice" often results in the opposite?). This is self improvement - and the process itself feels good (and is never ending). But with no pain, there is no gain.

Here is my no b.s. advice - this is what worked for me:

1) Identify your sticky points

- Ask yourself: why do you think you need to be (overly) nice to women?
Is it because you feel less "worthy" than other guys?
If so, find out why and work on it. In my experience it is not enough to merely tell yourself that it doesn't matter that you are poor, short, bald or whatever it is that stand in the way of your self esteem (and believe me, these things do not matter at all).
One way to deal with this problem is to be pro-active about them.
If you are balding, start a treatment regime.
If you are short, get a heel lift.
If you are pale, get a tan.
If you are fat, lose weight.
If you are skinny, go to the gym
Even if you are not skinny, go to the gym.
If you have sexual problems, get medical help and/or learn how to become better.
And above all - learn and practice game.
You get the hang of it. There are tons of things to do that will give you a feeling of improving yourself. The list is endless (I have done most of these and more): Get better clothes, work on your body language, read books on self improvement (most of them are crap, but it will still have an effect on you), seek friends who join your path, get interesting hobbies, re-furnish your place, set goals in your life and follow through (my marathon finish time was 4:15 - just a hint).
For every problem you might (think) you have, there is something you can actively do about it. The feeling of being proactive, of not being doomed to live with something you do not like is the best cure of depression. It is okay to use (the reward of future) sex as a motivator, but try seeing your self improvement as what it is - self improvement, not another "nice" thing you do "for" the woman.

- Ask yourself: are you just "too nice" or are there other problems that keep you from being succesful with women?
Nice guys often fail at more than one point with women (i.e. they do more wrong than being too supplicative). The often year- or even lifelong frustration with women (and men who will use the nice guy's niceness to their own advantage), made them bitter and misogynistic. Other problems include uber-nerdiness (there is a good and a bad kind), a general lack of social skills, a deep Madonna/Whore complex, a lack of understanding one-itis and most of all - approach anxiety.
Be aware that it is painful to admit flaws and mistakes and the natural reaction will be to come up with a cognitive defense: "But, ...". Investigate throughly whether your counter-argument as to why you dislike changing these things really is based in reason or whether it is just a way for yourself to stay inside your comfort zone. Can you really tell you dislike something or that something is "not you" if you haven't tried it?

- Ask yourself: Do you really achieve your goals?
Being nice often goes hand in hand with giving in. This is an ailment not just with girls, but with life in general. Study yourself for a couple of days. Are you the one who gets what he wants, or are you likley to compromise? How do people react towards you? Do they take you seriously? Do they give way when they walk on a collision course with you? Do they ignore you? Do people - any people, not just your friends - listen to you, or do they tend to interrupt you? Why do you accept being treated this way? What makes you think that other people have more of a right to get service before you, to walk straight while you give way or to talk even though you were in the middle of a sentence? Are they really just assholes, or is it you who allows them do be that way?
Learn how to change and use your body language - most importantly eye contact - to your advantage in these situations.
Here is the whole secret (as to why assholes are happier than nice guys - and why women prefer these bullies):
Set goals for yourself in life, be passionate about them - and steadily move towards them.

2) Train assertiveness
There are professionals offering this kind of therapy. There are e-books and audiobooks for PUAs for "demonic confidence" (I have no experience with either of them) and there is anecdotal advice from people such as Style and this guy. What it boils down to is the following:
Break social norms
This does not mean you should go ahead and kill someone. Rather than just breaking any social norm, you are supposed to break the kinds of norms that we follow for no rational reason. The best example for this is the ubiqituous inhibtion of complaining about bad service. Most people would rather accept bad food than to complain to the server. This is completely irrational behavior, and based in fear of social embarrassment. By learning that social embarrassment is not the immediate consequence of breaking irrational social norms, you can train yourself to stand up for yourself.
Ultimately, this will get you to the point of being able to socialize freely since most people are (irrationally) inhibited to talk to strangers. It will also result in a better life, by learning to put yourself first (this is NOT a bad thing!) and to act upon desire rather than fear.
Steps to get there are to walk around for a day in outrageous clothes (such as a wig), to ask people silly questions (What year is this? 2009? Thank god - then there is still time!) and to complain about bad service or food when shopping. You get the hang of it. If you can't get yourself to do that, give a friend of yours 10 ten dollar bills and ask him to only give them back to you (one at a time) every time you completed such a task.
Learn to communicate openly and directly. Do not beat around the bush. Say if something bothers you. Ask for the things you want. Be polite, but drop any unneccessary, submissive, manipulative attempt of being "nice". Do not be afraid to speak up for yourself (other people expect that from you), or to complain. Do all this - and experience how positive people will react.
Learn to be confident (rather than bold). Remind yourself of your self worth frequently. Remind yourself of how short this episode of life is, and that each minute spent without a smile is a lost minute that you could have smiled.
Get there, step-by-step.
[BTW, you can improve your social skills tremendously by starting to see going out and "hitting on" women as a true game. Try shock openers such as "You are baaaaad!", and gauge the reaction. If you deliver it with a smile, women will immediately join in. Women love to play in this way - and you will soon realize that the reason they enjoy it is that we always act/play in social situations]

3) Understand value and (reverse) compliance
You need to realize what is wrong about being nice. You need to understand that women want to please before being pleased. Every social interaction is give-and-take. To paraphrase "Pimpology": When you see an old lady walking to the street corner every day, feeding the pigeons, realize that she is a whore. and the pigeons are her pimps.
This is even more true for the mating market. You want something from a woman, and she will ask for something in return. It is up to you to regulate your market prize by controlling what you offer - and what you give away for free!
Once you realize what is really going on - behind the shroud of spoken words - you will realize how your "niceness" had in fact the opposite effect on women. They instinctively saw it as exactly the manipulative approach that it is. Let her work for your compliments, your concern and your money. She will not feel that this is bad on your part - she will be more happy once she gets you to be nice, because now it comes with a feeling of deservedness.

There is much to add, but this is a good basic framework. Theory is ony of value if it alters your behavior. You need to go out and start practicing these new social/behavioral patterns.


  1. "- Ask yourself: why do you think you need to be (overly) nice to women?
    Is it because you feel less "worthy" than other guys?"

    I have come to the conclusion that is it very difficult for women to distinguish between
    -Niceness from the nice guy
    -Niceness from the alpha coming from a position of power.

    They are almost unable to see the difference.

    And even worse,

    And alpha may look creepy in her eyes because "Why is he acting so mannered? he has power and looks"..... "Creep"...

    this actually may also be another projection. If a female had that power, how would she act?

    Nice? Tyrannous?

    "seek friends who join your path"

    And also make friends with men who are good with women.

    If nothing at all, at least you will get to see what is possible.

    Not knowing what is possible is part of what keeps you from moving forward.

    "You need to understand that women want to please before being pleased."

    Oh, this is a big one.

    Unlike a man, a woman's happiness comes from not obtaining something. The happiness comes from having to work to get something.

    An available woman is like heaven for a man, while an available man is a curse.

    An unavailable man who shows her uncontrollable desire that she feels she deserves, but then turn unavailable, that is heaven for women.

    One of the most destructive lies a young man, after casual encounters, has heard is that "women need trust". Trust comes with stability. Stability kills casual sexuality.

  2. Thanks for the response.I understand that this is not an advice column,but real world scenarios can often illuminate a topic in ways a more generalized treatment cannot.

    If I may be allowed to expand upon my situation a bit,I've never had trouble attracting women per say,women of all types and conditions quite routinely "come on" to me.Including married women,and women old enough to be my mother,(oh,the stories I could tell!)and most disconcertingly a cousins wife and even a divorced aunt.

    Judged by looks and demeanor most people would peg me as an alpha.Albeit a nice alpha.

    No,the problem lies elsewhere.Briefly,women "flake" on me all the time,cant seem to "close the deal",forward behaviour on my part usually ends in disapointment.

    I should mention two details which could be useful to your analysis,then I'll stop.While I'm in very good shape and visit the gym regularly,I used to be exceedingly thin right into my mid- twenties.Though I received plenty of flirtatious behaviour even then,I think my former awkward self has somehow permanently taken hold of my persona.I suspect this is fairly common.Also,my social status is abysmal,and I am very conscious of the fact.

    Thanks again,and no more requests for advice,I promise! ;)

  3. women "flake" on me all the time,cant seem to "close the deal",forward behaviour on my part usually ends in disapointment.

    Where do you get stuck exactly?

    The moment you turn your conversation/relationship with them into a certain direction?

    Or later on during physical escalation (i.e. moving from make out on a couch to intercourse in the bedroom)?

    Or somewhere in between?

    It is key to identify your sticky point.

    Maybe you can give a more specific example. There are several people reading board that might be able to help you out...

  4. You should really read "No more mr nice guy" by Robert A. Glover. It's a pretty good read and the book is filled with exercises that should help you resolve the beliefs and assumptions that are causing you to act like a "nice guy".

    When it comes to inner game I also like the masculinity-femininity framework that David Deida uses in his works. His book "The way of the superior man" is great but if you've got the time, try to find the mp3 collection (~30 files) of live recordings from Deida's seminars. It's floating around somewhere on the net, usually named something like "the work of david deida - blue truth". He's pretty spot on when he describes why women feel completely disgusted when men act like "nice guys".

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  6. This is just gold to me. Thank you. My friend had a nickname for me once, McMiserable, his alter ego McFlash. I wish to bury the former but not with any bitterness, I will remember him. Not simply something of my past, but to look as if seeing another life, another identity. The process of changing may not be easy for me, but its the first time Ive ever truly believed I could. And its thanks to this blog and many others like it, that a spark of something has raised up in me. Once again, thank you.

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