Thursday, April 23, 2009

Your mom - a slut?

The number one problem a guy faces once he gets good with women is the Madonna/Whore complex.


The reason for that is that the average chump believes that women are neatly categorized into one or the other domain. And his perception will follow his assumption. However, in order for you to have game you need to realize that all women love to be sluts once in a while.

This magic knowledge is what game exploits. After all, you are only sexually interesting to females if you know "how to treat a woman right".

What happens next is one of the following:

A) you either disregard the Madonna side of women and assume that all women are sluts

B) you try to accept and deal with both sides of female sexuality

C) you stay with/return to the full blown M/W of the average chump

If you scan the diverse blogs and remnants of the community of guys on a lifelong quest to become better/superior MEN, you encounter each of the above alternatives with varying frequency.

There are problems with each approach to classifying women:

A) Thinking that all women are nothing but amoral, opportunistic, infidelity-rationalizing, alpha cum craving sluts works well for short term flings/racking up insane numbers of lays. This can also be a helpful mindset for for creating and maintaining mLTRs (aka harems).

The problem is that any high self esteem woman will at some point sense the all encompassing misogyny underlying this view, and/or your absolute refusal for commitment (the probability that she gets to that point increases exponentially the closer she gets to age 30 and above and is still single).

As a result, these women will start to work hard on getting her desire for a Provider sated. Expect heavy beta-ization attempts, and what Franco calls "reactive depression" if they fail. Eventually there will be break-up attempts. Depending on the quality of the woman she might not stop fucking you, but she will try to find someone "serious" or "less frustrating" beside you - a husband eventually.

Conclusion: The "all women are whores" mindset works extremely well for casual sex. It creates deep problems for any for men who want to found a family.


B) The "love both sides of her" strategy is flawed from the outright.

Since M/W arises from a conflicted female need, any attempt at dealing with it as it stands automatically inherits the conflict with logic and reality.

For example, you can work on becoming both, a Provider as well as a Lover for her (either by dropping some of the asshole, or by taking up some asshole game). What happens in actuality, though, is that you become incongruent, supplicate and thereby end up being more of a beta male than keeping alpha status.

To put it more bluntly, if you fully embrace her need for sluttiness by having an "open marriage" or making her join "the lifestyle", you inevitably become a prototypical Provider since you now are "relationship pure" while she happily fucks guys she deems worthy as Lovers (your approval makes little difference to a woman who goes down that route).

There are strategies offered for relationship game that try to deal with the issue by employing strategies such as the Rapid Lover>Provider switch and other "Yin/Yang" attempts such as:
Inside the bedroom (figuratively speaking): forget about her M
Outside the bedroom: forget about her S

However, the ideal Lover/Provider male women crave in their romantic fantasies is impossible by definition (a Lover is the opposite of a Provider).

Conclusion: No matter how hard you try, you will never get perfect at your impersonation of the romantic ideal, since at best you become a mix of both - ending up in the middle rather than close to the Platonic ideal. You might fail in the same way as guys without any game do.


C) If M/W is in the way of seduction, how can you keep it and remain good at game?

What I have observed is that this happens by either:

- picking up tons of "slutty/easy' women while believing that that there are still Madonnas out there (outside the sphere of where you are used to get women easily)

- going along with a woman's Madonna-ization attempts (i.e. waiting for several dates until sex happens etc.)

But, don't we know already that women do these things (such as holding back on first dates, admitting only half of the actual number of previous sex partners) in order to toy with the male M/W complex and weed ou the alphas from the betas?

Are there really any women who can resist silverback alpha game. We know how women behave in bars. Do you really think that she is different just you meet her outside of this context (and her ovulatory period)? And even if you find a woman who has never been to parties and bars - do you really believe she made all her previous lovers wait that long?

This is an interesting discussion as there definitely are differences in the degree of promiscuity among women (note that according to some stats, women seem to be more promiscuous than men in general).


Statistics show a huge discrepancy between mean and median when it comes to the number of lifetime sex partners (keep in mind to double the numbers for women - since lie detector tests reveal that this is closer to the truth).

This is interesting, since the same occurs with men - but for an entirely different reason:
For men the mean is higher than the median because most men are beta and have little sexual success. The few alphas accumulate all the lays.

For women there is no such thing as alpha status girls being more attractive.
Males are visually driven and facial attractiveness is likely to be normal distributed. So differences in attractiveness can also not be explain why some women are so much more promiscuous than others.

So what is it that makes some women fuck around while others remain constraint?

There are prostitutes, of course. However, they probably are too few in relation to the overall population (estimates I could find are 23 in 100.000) to explain the data.

More interestingly, this study further reveals that women who are not that "casual" about casual sex tend to remain that way.

In other words, if you are her number 4 - she might not be much higher in her dick count once you two are married for some years. If you are number 32, well, just look at the statistics.

Conclusion: Categorizing women into "fuck material" versus "marriage material" might be the most reasonable approach for guys seeking a family on their own.

In reality, we probably all are somewhat incoherent with ourselves and carry around a mix of those three exclusive-seeming possibilities of dealing with M/W:
Tripple-digit-lay guys thinking about having children at some point with a "decent" woman.
Guys who decided they will never marry, yet believe that there actually are good girls worthy of better treatment
And so on.

Things are easy as long as one is only out for fun.
Game can be learned quickly.
Realizing that women love to be sluts comes for free.
Congruently dealing with the fact that women are "ni ange ni bĂȘte" might be a lot harder.

11 comments:

  1. Damn 11, excllent analysis. Excellent.

    Been writing about this in DGM, or also in some replies to maybe you and roissy,

    The M/W complex is detrimental when one wants to enjoy casual sex, but becomes a necessity when one want to raise a family of his own. His own means, his own kids, with a faithful wife.

    Talking about hooking up, one thing which makes an attractive woman more attractive to men is her availability to him, while the same effect is seen for men when they are non-judgemental, absolving the woman of any responsibility and feeling bad of what she is doing.

    I have been listening to soporno for a few days now, and his advice is excellent, but excellent only for a man who wants to fuck around. If you are a man wanting a relationship, his advice will result with you raising someone else's seed.

    One thing I dont agree with soporno is his notion that female value based on chastitiy is a social construct and also that the female seek for high value providers is a social construct. There is more biology in play than he admits. Women biologically want the high value provider ot invest in her. That is what she is looking for, in my own life and also where I have been living for some time now, in a extremely feminized society, women still un around "I want a man to take care of me" once they had their fun. This is not social, it is biology. And like you said, this tends t happen around the time the market value starts depreciating.

    Soporno is a guy with zero interest in investing into a woman, and strikes me as a man who has not interest in raising kids.

    His viewpoint is strictly fitting the women are sluts idea, as that is what he is looking for. He calls them "women who do what they want", women who want ot be wives on the other hand he calls "contract whores". This is true. This is a distinction that will double the game an aspiring PUA has, but what he does not mention is that women are "free women" and "contract whores" at the same time. To different men. The man who commits gets to see the "contract whore" side, so in my opinion it is a necessity for the man to demand that the woman will not be a "free woman" while he is contracting her, which by the way is usually the womans demand. Also it is a understandable act that he does not want his "contract whore" to be a "free woman" before him as why should he be the one paying if everything was so free anyway.

    Once again, it is very important to note that this switch is switched on by women, not men.

    Soporno forgets biology. And soporno is on the team which is the cuckolder. For him it does not matter who th girl is outside of his frame, as he is like I will be repeating myself again, not interested in anything long.

    One thing to note is that even i I say women switch the switch between "free slut" and "contract whore, in short term, men show the woman what she should do. This is the destructive part of the M/W issue, and I am guilty of it too.

    You approach a woman with short term in mind. If you have the belief all women are sluts / free women, you will be congruent in your short term approach and she will follow your lead, knowing that it will not hamper her future when she decides to pull the switch on some other dude. I, on the other hand you approach her with the mindset she is a nice girl, the she will be a nice girl to you, make you have the minimum of three dates, but still be fucking other dudes who had the belief, "free woman". Especially true if you are an attractive guy for short and long term.

    Take most pua gurus out there, be it style, tyler, sean messenger, etc, these guys in the end will have/all have some committed relationship. Committed means, raising you OWN kids. Tit is a necessity for these women to distinguish between the madonna's and the whores. In this context the madonna whore complex moves out of being a complex into being a necessity distinction to have to raise the chances that there will not be any sperm wars going on.

    Soporno also talks about the things being societal construct becasue now we have various forms of birth control, and abortion. Is it a societal construct that women like the manly man when they are ovulating, but the providers when they are not? Is it a societal construct that committed women are more likely to cheat when ovulating? Is it a societal construct that they are more likely to forego contraception when they are in ovulation? Is it a societal construct that men have evolved different categories of sperm? The attackers, defenders, baby makers and blockers? Evolution is not a societal construct.

    Talking about a big simplification of the process here: The M/W complex was not created by society as much as the society's behavior being constructed by th M/W behavior in women.

    Two examples:

    1. LAst eve, I let go a woman, an 8, who said she was drunk in bars every time, and she wanted to go home, but wanted my number. Another 8 who invited me to an afterparty, with a promiscuous past, where the afterparty was too much of an investment for me to get in her pants. And I did not feel the slightest regret. I will invest in a woman who is worthy of my investment, and a "free woman" to others but "special to you" is like paying for the drinking water of a sprin which the whole town has been using for free, which every every usage gets some more baggage.

    2. I had two dreams about two of my exes. One was a virgin when I met, and was a virgin when we broke uo few years later. (IT was torture), and another was a promiscuous woman. In my dream I felt more respect for the kiss of the virgin than for the promiscuous one, as the virgin's kiss was special for me while the other's kiss was a sign of investment for a kiss that was distributed wholesale. Both girls are 9s.

    I would suspect that as high as 98% of men want to have a relationship at some time. One has to lok at this as a investment. Maybe the biggest investment in life when considering the passing of your genes. The one biggest choice a man makes in life. The only choice that will pass on after his death. (inventors like newton, tesla are what, 0.01%?)

    If you are not interested, then yes, openly declining the M/W dichotomy of women will grant you heaven on earth.

    If at some point you will make that decision, it is necessary to find a woman who has an intact and healthy connection between love and sex, and thinks sex is a special sharing between two people who have good feelings towards eachother, mutual respect, affection and passion. And no, this is different from "my sexuality is special". It is more like sex is special.

    One has to choose the sexual madonna. The woman who will adore you, adore your dick, adore your sexualty, and adore you in a way that she will feel honor to give birth to your kids.

    Once sexuality is detached from love, you have women who will see love with the committed man as a commodity while sexing strangers because in this context it is just sex.

    Some women are wives, some are free bangs, having knowledge not of the man's ingrained or socially constructed M/W complex, but of women's naturally evolved M/W existence is crucial, it is necessary, it is the only hope a man will have not to raise the kids of sopornos, me, you, or some other dude who pushes the right buttons.

    And once I enter a relationship, I will inevitabl change sides and move into the group which will not anymore be in the cuckolder, but in the under risk of getting cuckolded team.

    To recap:

    If you are interested in fucking around, openly accept all women are sluts, are sluts for you, and cherich embrace, and dont judge it.

    If not, it is your duty to your existence, to accept that all women are sluts, but choose the one who is only a slut to you, and ideally only has been and will be a slut to you. Embrace the M/W knowledge fully and make a wise decision.

    z.g. out.

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  2. as I'm in no hurry to find a wife/start a family, i tend to split women into these categories within my mind. there are very few girls I actually date/call a girlfriend. Statistically, and there's no way to be sure unless I ambush them on a reality show with a lie detector, they claimed to have low numbers. claims lower than other girls I'd dated. I'm sure somewhere in there was a closet slut, but you're also right about acknowledging the practical need for a man to discern which category women fall into.

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  3. 1) To what extent are the Madonna/Whore for men and Provider/Lover for women the flip sides of the same coin for their respective genders? It seems that both sexes have contradictory needs in the sexual relationships: an asexual partner to help raise a family with and a sexual partner solely for gratification and excitement.

    2) Conflict between contradictory elements of one's personality is not a flaw. Our personalities are the products of these conflicts, between the responsible and lazy, creative and logical. One side operates for a while, then the other takes over and on the whole they move in a positive direction. There is no such thing as a unified personality that is consistent from moment to moment.

    3) As for finding a middle ground between Madonna and Whore, I'm reminded of Roissy's 2/3 rule: for every 3 compliments/nice gestures she gives you, give 2 back. Thus she constantly feels the need to win you over but without the feeling of being taken for granted. Perhaps dealing with the contradictory essence of our natures is not up to us, but to our partners. The man has to account for the inconsistent desires of his wife and the woman has to compensate for her husband's M/W complex. I don't know what exactly this would entail for a wife, but it seems like she should consistently put out in the relationship so as to keep the Madonna perception from taking too strong a hold.

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  4. 1) To what extent are the Madonna/Whore for men and Provider/Lover for women the flip sides of the same coin for their respective genders? It seems that both sexes have contradictory needs in the sexual relationships: an asexual partner to help raise a family with and a sexual partner solely for gratification and excitement.
    Studies show that after I think 3 years, the sexual urges for a man for his committed woman does not fall significantly, while the woman's plummets.

    The man's sexual urge cannot fall, he has to keep competing with the possibility of other sperm swiming in the wob, thus at least regularly, his semen needs to enter the woman.

    Also I dont think men enter marriage thinking "oooh, I got myself and asexual wife", but women enter the marriage thinking "Great provider"... and "provider" is not usually a phrase that makes the man damn attrative.

    If things were not this way, we would not have the wedding cake sexuality killer joke.

    Another thing is the women's betaization of the male to ensure his bond, slavery and support for years to come, and beta does not wet a woman.

    The sexual gratification of the man with other women does not carry the grave consequences genetically as the woman banging other dudes.

    Yes, many men have an aversion of their wives loving to suck their cock and get it up the ass, but a bigger portion wishes for these things in their wives, and maybe an even bigger portion would hope that their wives would not feel aversion, not only to blowjobs, asbangs, but to regular sex.

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  5. Back to soporno, talking about why women sexing around are called sluts, he mentions,

    "If you do what you want to do you have no self respect"

    and then gives a better definition,

    "slut is the girl having no self respect because she is who gives it away for nothing, and the girl who charges for it has respect""

    With him I agree that wives are indeed contract whores, but they are also mothers. A man is not only paying support for the vagina, but more importantly, he is paying to support raising his OWN kids.

    So in part he is, yes, paying for a whore.

    What does a "free woman" do, once for some reason she decides that she will not want more variety, but will want to have a relationship?

    A relatioship that is nw special to her? So that she is special in the relationship?

    Will she sex the guy whenever she feels like? Will the whenever she feels like be as often as in her past?

    What about vacations? What about the need for the woman to feel special.

    Aaaah. Now get got something here. The relationship being special, she has the constant need to feel special. And this is not provided by the man comitting to her and sexing her till death, as this is what she got from non-pecial men who she enjoyed when she was a "free woman", for whom she was non-special.

    So we get to the point where the special man has a constant duty to make the special woman feel special...

    Is this not at the least emotional payment?

    Then this relationship moves into marriage, and voila, "free woman" behaves the SAME WAY as a contract whore.

    What is more important, a free woman , besides having experienced a wide range of men, possibly higher in scale than the man she settles for, the competition in her head will be fierce. Add to it like I mentioned the broken link between sexuality and love. (companionship, respect etc etc..)

    -------------------------------------------------

    He says, girls like to be lead, they like to follow.

    This in my opinion is work, and if I am ging to lead the woman for long time, work through her non stop shit tests, non stop excitement need and non stop drama need, not forgetting the non stop appreciation, confirmation support need, it better be for a woman whose company and services I am enjoying was a rarity to begin with.

    Girls wanting to get lead is not a social construct, but a man wanting to have a valuable commodity if he is going to lead (lead = tak all the risk and responsibility) has not been enjoyed by countless men is a social construct?

    Come on...

    -----------------------------------------------

    "Rules you should follow should make sense to you"

    Definitely.

    For me these are:

    "Never forget that if you want casual sex, she will follow your frame. Embrace the whore side of women ,and treat them as sluts without being judgemental. Every woman wants sex, every woman enjoys sex, with multiple partners who lead them to be swept away.

    Nevr forget that if you want to raise a family, putting all your emotional, time based and financial being into it, you have the right to demand a rare woman, you have the right to set your own standards, you have the necessity to realize the ingrained M/W parameters of women and make the best choice as a woman who will be a madonna to you, a whore to you, and has kept both these aspect on short supply before you."

    Now, THAT makes sense to me.

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  6. z.g.:

    I can tell among my (non-PUA-enlightened) friends who got married whether they had or did not have a lot of experience with women by simply looking at their wives.

    The guys who can pass as alpha all chose girls who have never even seen a club from the inside.

    The guys I know who married after few prior girlfriends ended up with wives they "just know" would never sleep with anyone else. And then, the very same women come on to me behind their backs and try to tell me that they actually agreed on "an open marriage", and that they can sense that I "don't judge" and so on and so forth...

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  7. And then, the very same women come on to me behind their backs and try to tell me that they actually agreed on "an open marriage", and that they can sense that I "don't judge" and so on and so forth...An "open marriage" almost always benefits the wife.The only time it does not is when the wife is bi, and brings girls home.

    In these kind of marriages, the wifey has easy access to sex wherever she is and whenever it is.

    The man, as usual, has to work for it, so he actually does not live in abundance of vagina, worst case, raises some other gene.

    One has to notice that "open marriage" is not the same as the marriage where the man has a wife and has mistresses.

    The mentioned open marriage allows the woman to have steady and stable support, steady and stable sexual satisfaction if she needs to revert to banging the husband, and an almost infinite supply of instant sexual gratification with whomever crosses her path.

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  8. "The number one problem a guy faces once he gets good with women is the Madonna/Whore complex. The reason for that is that the average chump believes that women are neatly categorized into one or the other domain. And his perception will follow his assumption. However, in order for you to have game you need to realize that all women love to be sluts once in a while."

    They are neatly categorized into one or the other. You can't be a slut by night and a saint by day. If you do that, you are a slut pretending to be a saint. It is impossible to be both at the same time.

    Women should accept this fact and stop fooling men by pretending to be something they are not. You have to be pretty fucked in the head to pretend to be a nice girl, marry a "beta" and then cry a river of tears because he doesn't punch you in the face while cumming all over your hair after making you bleed from your ass. For fuck's sake...

    It terrifies me that this kind of duplicitous behavior seems to be the accepted norm.

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  9. Jesus Christ, you are right that women who settle lose their right to complain about bad sex.

    Several women I know have gone down that road, and told me they knew exactly what they got themselves into. It's a sacrifice many women do deliberately once their age of fertility comes to a close and they realize that the thugs their 'ginas tingle for make for bad dads.

    This having said, I have yet to find a woman who is a 100% Madonna. All women like to be sluts - if they can trust you and you transpire the masculinity it takes.

    Men get fooled about if they forget about that fact. Once they make out a woman as a Madonna, she will be forced to hide her cum-loving side in order to keep the guy. The same women will happily deep throat and take it up the ass if you know how to handle them right.

    I also have yet to find a 100% slut. Women are birth giving organisms first and foremost. Even the most fucked up ones have a spark of loving, caring motherhood inside of them. Again, this will depend on how who treat them. If you only see whores around you - this is what you'll get.

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