Friday, December 11, 2009

Are Confident Girls Sexy?


Time and again I hear girls bragging about their high self esteem and tell other girls to work on their level of confidence as dating advice (if you care, go read some online ads at dating sites and you see what I mean).

There is no doubt that a man's "confidence" as one of the most obvious outward signs of male status/power has a profound effect on women. But is the opposite true as well?

If you ask most guys, including those who are obsessed/cerebral about meeting women, the answer will be a clear "no". The only think that makes a woman attractive is her looks.
The dating market follows two simple laws:

Women judge by Appearance

Men judge by Looks

Or, as biologists express it:
"male preferences typically focus on direct indicators of female fecundity such as body size, and rarely result in the evolution of ... sexual displays in females."

Could it be, then, that women mistake their own preference as that of the other sex?

This is almost certainly true. Men often fall victim to the same fallacy and obsess about their looks instead of working on their "sexual display". Most men have a hard time accepting that their looks do not matter at all. So it is not too surprising that women do the same mistake. Given the profound gender difference when it comes mate selection, we all fail at putting ourselves into each other's shoes.

Yet, it is also conceivable that the story is not that simple when it comes to male selection. Most women I talk to can easily produce anecdotes that seem to prove their point. According to these stories, even some of the most gorgeous girls can fail to "score" when they are depressed or needy - not unlike guys.

I tended to be skeptical about these claims, but having had the unique opportunity to "coach" women in meeting men, I realized that there is truth to that. Women who smile a lot and happily engage in conversations at the bar seem to invite more approaches by guys than the same girls sitting broken heartedly in a remote corner with obvious sadness in her eyes. Surprisingly, neither her choice of clothes, nor the amount of approach invitations seem to matter in that situation. Guys shy away from a woman who radiates "not being in the mood".

Even more surprisingly, I have witnessed many times how even the most attractive girls can ruin their chances by becoming openly aggressive, "needy" and too direct in their approach to men. Women who openly become sexual and try to score make outs with any guy who is brave enough to not run away from their ravenous display of peaked libido, consistently go home alone. They typically launch (each other) into an escalating display of man hunt that eventually prevents guys from approaching (at least the guys they are actually competing for - the horde of drunk guys that mistake this situation as a unique opportunity to score a cheap drunk fuck get rejected accordingly).

More so, while the female preference for male dominance/status displays is as ubiquitous in nature as the male preference for direct signs of female fertility, there is an increasing amount of controversy among evolutionary biologists whether or not males might also judge females by more indirect behavioral cues (in any case, there is increasing appreciation for a profound role of male mate choice).

Taken from that angle, there might be reason to doubt the simple assumption that all a woman needs to be hot are a cute, face, great tits and ass. While a slim body, a voluptuous rack, full hair and a smooth symmetrical face all indicate female health, youth and fertility, there are more factors to guarantee a man's sperm to meet a fertile egg.

Certain ailments will express themselves in behavioral differences due to physical and mental discomfort. And given the lack of significant changes in a woman's physique during ovulation (estrus), all a man has to go by to dissect the girls that promise the highest chance of instant insemination success are subtle cues in her behavior.

It does not seem to be too far fetched, then, that women claim that they do not only care about their looks based on past experience. A woman's appearance can conceivably boost her sexiness (think pole dance). This can be contrasted with the observation that a man's looks do not matter at all. So, when it comes to choosing mates, men might be the more complicated (and choosier) sex after all.

23 comments:

  1. I’ve heard many women advise each other against neediness and desperation, as if these were their natural tendencies against which they must be ever vigilant. Yet, I have never observed any woman actually acting needy or desperate. Around me, they always play (or are) hard to get.

    Perhaps I’ve never seen neediness and desperation because women only act that way around the alpha males they desire, as explained in the post: “They typically launch (each other) into an escalating display of man hunt that eventually prevents guys from approaching (at least the guys they are actually competing for.”

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  2. Could it be, then, that women mistake their own preference as that of the other sex?

    This is almost certainly true.


    Bingo. Of the two sexes, women are by far the most solipsistic and narcissistic:

    http://www.inmalafide.com/2009/10/06/eternal-solipsism-of-the-female-mind/

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  3. @Ferdinand: I think it was Russell who amused people with this anecdote where one of his female students complained that she was the only solipsist in class.

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  4. @Wilbur: If you haven't witnessed the effect of high status men on women (yet), you will not understand some of the things I blog about.

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  5. I think confidence and the rest of game applies when women go after alphas. Alphas reverse script on them so women try to seduce them.
    stumbled on this on Amazon and it blew my mind:
    http://www.amazon.com/Why-Men-Love-Bitches-Relationship/dp/1580627560/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260654772&sr=8-1

    didn't read the actual book, but from description and comments it's all clear enough.

    And betas? Betas are just out, asexual. I don't even think it's that much their non-dominance and niceness. It's just that they don't speak the same language. It's divide by zero situation.

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  6. Well put. Myopically viewing other's motives through the lens of our own is pandemic among humans. I think it arises out of a lack of empathy which gives rise to the ability to engage alternate viewpoints. This issue is the precise reason why one should never accept being set-up by a woman, aka. a blind date. Invariably women overemphasize personality and it's ability to overcome physical shortcomings. Women who are clearly plainer than jane if not downright genetically bereft are recommended glowingly by their friends. For women the threshold is about a 4-5 on a scale of ten and thereafter they care about personality and presume you would too. For all but the lowest status men this is downright insulting. I do agree that secondary characteristics play a role, but only after you've taken the airbags for a test ride and if you are considering a longer-term engagement. Dumb as a post and well endowed is more than satisfactory for a one night stand wouldn't you say gentlemen?

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  7. yeah, in time, as you succeed, you find that other guys have much trouble relating to anecdotes or the manner in which you report women behave. they find such things preposterous. i used to be one of the guys that doubted all manner of strange behaviors/reactions of women to male behavior...now i know better. the secret club theory, the truth that women act COMPLETELY different with some men than others.

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  8. and as for confidence in women....it's the right, exact amount that is sexy.....not the type that carries herself in a manner that says "I'm the hottest bitch in this bar"...but a girl with a not quite screaming out loud sexiness...and a girl confident enough to take a break up and not go out and fuck a bunch of random dudes to "get over the last guy"...that kind of confidence is mad sexy.

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  9. @ Alphadominance:
    For women the threshold is about a 4-5 on a scale of ten and thereafter they care about personality and presume you would too.

    You said it, bro'. "She has a great personality" or "she is so great" are basically synonyms that women use for "fattie". They have a hard time understanding when their fat and ugly friends fail to attract men despite these oh so amazing qualities.
    Likewise, "handsome" and "nice" are synonyms that girls use to code for good looking, but sexually uninteresting guys. If a woman is turned on by a man she will call him "hot", "so cocky" or even an asshole.

    @ John Smith:

    i used to be one of the guys that doubted all manner of strange behaviors/reactions of women to male behavior...now i know better.

    This is one of the most amazing things when it comes to social dynamics. You have guys on the one hand who seem to know "nice" acting women only, and then there are the experiences guys and naturals who just shake their head at that. I have friends of both caliber, and neither of them have clue what it's like for the other guys (Tucker Max recounts how amazed he was when one day finding out that his exploits were exceptional. It was all he and his friends knew. It was inconceivable that other guys did not have the same experience).

    The truth is that the very same women that nice guys will see as act coy, shy, sophisticated, asexual and well-mannered angelic beings turn into sex-crazed, raunchy horn dogs who will beg for rough porn star sex in the presence of the right man and circumstances. No exceptions.

    It actually makes writing a blog like this rather hard, because you can only cater to either men "in the know" or guys who lack the experience, skills and insight to relate to your experiences.

    Most guys go through a transformative event or period where their views will shift from naive to awaken. Hanging out with a natural can do that. I recommend anyone who reads these blogs in disbelief to befriend a sexually successful man and observe the women in his presence.

    Of course, an even better way is to work hard on yourself to improve as a man - soon you will get eye opening first hand experience. I have blogged about my personal Aha-experience in that matter, and it is one of the most popular posts on this site.

    I will keep alternating between flash backs of my beta past and the insights I have today, even at the risk of boring and losing a great part of the readership. Once you make the transition to "man in the know" (and successfully fight beta-ization), it gets easy to simply accept your new reality. The never before seen things about women that amazed you as you witnessed them for the first time become unexciting everyday phenomena. (Mentally) Putting yourself back into these old shoes can help revive some of the fascination of these precious discoveries about the other sex.

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  10. Ferdinand; 11 Minutes—

    I fully agree that women in the Anglosphere are much more solipsistic than men today. I restrict this to the Anglosphere today by virtue of lack of sufficient knowledge about this issue outside of it, though there are contrary hints. I also accept that a lot of that is likely biological. However I wonder how much more solipsistic women were before feminism – and in the Anglosphere before Victorianism, which was the first Anglosphere period where women were considered morally (if not yet intellectually or practically) superior to men. Especially e.g. in the monarchal Restoration period in England, a time of science, sex and decadence, or the Puritan and early Virginian planters one in the US, i.e. late 17th century. Or how about early Gregorian period of the early 18th century (the Protestant (why chosen) Kings George from Hanover, Germany).

    I.e. I think the natural solipsism of women has been greatly magnified in the Anglosphere for their being excused for almost all, and blamed for little since the full 90s "flowering" of feminism especially.

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  11. Interesting question, Doug.

    My hunch is that this one the many cases where the recent release from cultural restraints has uncovered a worrying natural tendency in women.

    I wish I'd know more about history, or literature for that matter. There is much to learn with regard to this topic. But, coming from a non-Anglican background, I can at least contribute this interesting piece of evidence to the list of study material.

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  12. 11 Minutes

    Women judge by Appearance

    Which women call looks. Probably heavily under Hollywood /Western entertainment media influence which calls it that too, wanting to conflate male and female attraction criteria, as a tenant of equalist/sameness cultural Marxist in origin belief.

    Girls DO perceive attractive to them men as better looking. A good word to help tease this out is "edgie". Or to get more to brass tacks, "looks exciting, fun and good in bed". Note this is being ascribed to looks. Now don't get me wrong, women CAN tell a lot about dominance/status from looks but much more from a dynamic video clip looks than a jpg. Some from the later too though. But when they learn more about the guy, the parts that matter for their sexual attraction they usually learn 80% or more damn quickly, from watching him interact with others esp. other attractive girls, and with her, girls then back attribute the revision to "looks" almost always.

    Except the most reflective, honest and intelligent girls who can sometimes/often be induced to see the light. Well those over a threshold. 1.5 sigmas maybe on the only really easily quantifyable of those characteristics. (Which illustrates one reason why IQ is somewhat overemphasized in the realist community. If it's not forbidden to talk about, it's real easy to make non vague.)

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  13. @ alphadominance: Never reject a blind date out of hand. A female friend set me up on one when I was staying with her (and I had about an hours warning). Needless to say I was pissed (also tired) and not expecting much. Happily, the mystery woman was a stunning Asian. Alas, I blew it.

    - Breeze

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  14. Excellent post. I wonder if women who are otherwise attractive but unsuccessful when acting overly aggressive give off conflicting cues - looks good (fertile), but unfeminine and not following the normal power dynamic (going against the choosiness expected of a woman). On GirlGame we've had a lot of dialogue about when/if a girl should initiate.

    The link about indirect indicators of fertility (thereby, attractiveness) in women sounds like just what I've been looking for in terms of behavioral studies. Am reading it... much appreciated.

    Lastly, about neediness and desperation, I think most women grapple with this in two main ways:

    1) "I need a man, any man": this is the woman who really wants a boyfriend, or just a man to date for various reasons (she is "in estrus", haha)
    2) "I like him sooo much": this is the woman who is decidedly attached to ONE particular man. This often comes about when bonding comes into play. Also when she may grapple with things like jealousy, mate-guarding, etc. Or she may sense declining fertility and push him for a greater commitment.

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  15. "The only think that makes a woman attractive is her looks."

    Not at all. Personality has an effect on attractiveness, as does clothing.

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  16. 11minutes
    "The truth is that the very same women that nice guys will see as act coy, shy, sophisticated, asexual and well-mannered angelic beings turn into sex-crazed, raunchy horn dogs who will beg for rough porn star sex in the presence of the right man and circumstances. No exceptions."

    It never ceases to amaze me how often PUAs make sweeping statements like this that apply to every single woman on the planet. And there is never any rational or factual basis for these claims. It's no different from a feminist saying that all men are rapists.

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  17. sweeping statements ... that apply to every single woman on the planet.

    Ah. Finally someone taking issue with my overgeneralizations. Funny, somehow that made me think of this

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  18. There's no rational or factual basis for what you said. None.

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  19. Z here gents,



    This verbiage was included in that last post:


    "Could it be, then, that women mistake their own preference as that of the other sex?

    This is almost certainly true. Men often fall victim to the same fallacy and obsess about their looks instead of working on their "sexual display". Most men have a hard time accepting that their looks do not matter at all. So it is not too surprising that women do the same mistake. Given the profound gender difference when it comes mate selection, we all fail at putting ourselves into each other's shoes."



    Guys I was saying that at Roissy's in less elegant language a few months ago. Its something Ive noticed. We as men pump a bunch of iron, take care to wear matching and well fitting clothes, make sure our hair is neat and any facial hair is deftly trimmed, suck in any gut that we might have....................and women try and act like they are bossy, "alpha-queenbee-of-the-world", command-and-in-control types (mostly by being loud) and bragging about whatever position (usually some little meaningless title) they have at their job, and especially how many men are interested in them.

    In reality both sexes would probably do well to do just the opposite of what they do. They are both projecting what they find attractive in the opposite sex onto themselves to a large degree. I think there is some minimum threshold of male looks that is acceptable to women, but if a guy is a 3-to-4 or above and has game, the upper-limit of the women he can attract is apparently as high as the sky itself. I never get over some of the hot babes I see with quite plain men, but one hardly ever sees the reverse.

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