In the whole of Germany, there is just one professor of psychology left who teaches and defends Freud's Psychoanalysis. The poor guy, last of his kind, is the target of frequent criticism and laughter from his academic colleagues. How come this "school" has lost most of its appeal to professional researchers of the mind? Did it not dominate psychology to the extent that it almost was synonymous with it for a while? One of my previous mentors once gave me an answer to both these questions with a bon mot that stuck to my mind:
"Freud's thinking became so successful because he gives us the illusion that we are complicated little beings. And nobody wants to be told that they are simple minded."
We are not just surprised each time somebody reveals our ways as steered by an invisible but primitive force, we outright hate it. And this is particularly true when it comes to our love life.
Yet, the force is too strong to deny. Society has come to terms with the fact that male taste in women is nothing but a base instinct craving signs of health and high fertility: youth, beauty, slim bodies, buxom breasts, and tight labia.
The one and only thing that men want from a woman is the prospect of healthy offspring.
Thus, magazines and billboards feature girl of this kind and not old post-menaupsal women in order to entice the male mind. If anything, we joke about this one dimensionality of the male mate preference.
For some reason, however, there is a lot of resistance each time someone points out that women are not any more complex either. Worse than that, by lacking a proper understanding of the one and only factor that women seek in a mate, both genders hurt themselves in the love seeking process: women find themselves in bed with guys "who are not even their type", while many men try to improve their attractiveness in the most ineffective ways.
The one and only thing that women want from a man is (the prospect of) high status.
Men and women alike want "sexy kids", but we have different strategies to achieve that. And for women, all that counts is a man's ability to influence things for the better. "Status" is something a man does. It is the magic of influence that allows some men to get more out of life, and women know that on an instinctual level.
But what does that mean on a practical level?
What a man looks like does not matter. All that matter is his appearance.
In other words, women do the exact opposite of men when it comes to select people for sex. Men care for the physical attributes of a women, women care for the non-physical attributes that men radiate in their behavior.
But what about things like muscularity and height (as some of you have noted dutifully)? Don't they count?
Well, yes and no.
Women prefer taller (and more muscular) men. That is true.
But that does not mean that they are attracted to a man's height!
The problem is that taller (and more muscular) men tend to get something from all of us that shorter men don't get: high social status. And it is this tight correlation between height and other people's respect that makes things confusing.
To find out whether women are attracted to a man's looks (such as height) or his social status, one thus needs to look at cases where the two are dissociated.
And the answer is appalling:
As a man, you can literally look like a gnome and score girls that make most men salivate.
What about the opposite? Just go to a club and compare the insecure guys, liquid courage in front of chest to the few men who actually talk with women. Does their tallness matter?
Women are not attracted to tall men. They are attracted to high status males. It just happens to be that their chances of a guys being of high status are disproportionately increased if the guy is tall. Thus, if women are robbed of the means of evaluating a man's high status (by checking his body language and response to shit tests), they will default to anything that correlates with these things. This is why showing photographs of guys is such a poor way to evaluate female mate preference.
As a guy, you can train yourself by trying to see the world through a woman's eyes. Judging each person's status, as communicated by body language, at any moment in time will give you the power of perfect predictability of which men are seen as attractive by female consensus. It will reveal to you what it is in you that women respond to positively as well. For women, realizing the above is not quite as hard as for men, but still helpful when seeking an interesting man.
Mankind's success and doom relies on how well we understand our own motives and actions. Gnotis auton!
Monday, February 15, 2010
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Good post.
ReplyDeleteso, the world seems to be in perfect balance - women need influential midgets, while men need pretty future ex girlfriends.
ReplyDelete//I like it, how I say "man's looks matter", and you say "to a woman, man's looks do not matter". it's like we have this perfect consensus :)
Very interesting.
ReplyDeleteAs a short guy, I've noticed something peculiar about women. Taller women seem to have less hang-ups about short guys.
It's the short or below average heighted women who are the most fixated with a man's height. It's as if they reflect their own insecurities on to the male physique.
excellent, along with the "Alpha spark" post.
ReplyDeleteThis is the Game - figuring out and internalizing high-status behaviors. I think I got a knack of it personally (yes, thanks for listing Impro), but a post on it would be nice.
Phoenixism - indeed.. at 5'8, which isn't that short, but not at the "attractive by default" level, I have the same experience. I've been with unusally high number (at least a third) of same as me or taller women and I get hardest time attracting really short ones. Go figure.
ReplyDelete"so, the world seems to be in perfect balance - women need influential midgets, while men need pretty future ex girlfriends."
ReplyDeleteNope. The world is in imbalance, because there are too few high status guys, midget or not, for too many pretty future ex girlfriends.
"I like it, how I say "man's looks matter", and you say "to a woman, man's looks do not matter"
Now I will sound like your husband of 20 years, but if I may remind you: That's not what you said. You said: "ladies can overlook the looks" and "it [is] a person's appearance that matter to ... women"
I used to have a fixation about dating men taller than myself. At 5'9", I'm the shortest person in my family, my father hitting around 6'5", my grandfathers running about 6'3"-4". Aunt was 6'2", little sister is pushing 6'... you just get incredibly used to being surrounded by tall people, start expecting it in your partners.
ReplyDeleteFortunately, I got over the height fixation. It's all about posture and walk, my key signs of status, followed up by shoe choice (which has a logic-base, not a fashion one).
Good explanation of the height/high status correlation. I was aware of greater career success for males being correlated by height, but I did not take that the extra step into the field of sexuality.
Phoenixism, I have to agree. I barely scrape average, and the guys I compete with on my course for the women have at least 4 inches of height on me (plus 3 years of age [graduate students] and subsequent gym time - but it goes to show how powerful game is)
ReplyDeleteThe girls I've had to use the least effort to win over (ie shit tests, probes for masculine features) have been tall girls. Probably also helps that it alters my stance (as I instinctively 'man up' to appear bigger) and I can neg them/DHV them.
An old seduction trick: if she says she has a certain "type" which is physical-- tall, black, muscular, whatever-- then that's the *surface* desire. Find out what the *deep* desire is underneath it. Tall = Authority. Black = Forbidden thrill. Muscular = Dominant, intimidating. Etc.
ReplyDeleteThey actually do care about looks. They would rather have a one night stand with a hot pool boy than some random old millioanre. They will also have the kid with pool boy (better genes) and have the millionare fat man pay for it.
ReplyDeleteNot that meaningful to say women don't care what men look like. It's like saying that men don't care about women's ass and boobs, they actually care about their fertility and health. Doesn't add much to bring up the word "care".
ReplyDelete11 minutes, obviously, I don't know the difference between the two (looks and appearance) (aren't these two the same? i don't mean that I need a guy with blue eyes, but I would rather if his eyebrows wouldn't take up half of the face. i do have preferences, but "the whole exterior/picture" matters), or you're just picking at the words.
ReplyDeletePhoenixism, short women are the most desirable, so they go with the most desirable men (tall men). Tall women have to make compromise, so they accept to date short men. Short women are not insecure, stop dreaming.
ReplyDeletereminds me of the difference between mean values and there's another term for it.
ReplyDeleteie: girls say they like tall men, what they actually like is feeling safe with a man of larger phys. size. girls say they like a man with a career, they seek the comfort and stability it provides. the value behind the attribute is the key to understanding.
Great post, but you know people will always prefer their illusion that they are unique. I'm amused and yet tired of hearing 'not all women' fall for game, or 'good girls' aren't attracted to guys who date lots of women.
ReplyDeleteNice work.
ReplyDeleteI'm a tall guy (6'4"), and I was always confused at the notion that women naturally responded to tall men. Certainly when I was young and insecure they didn't. When I tightened up my game, I started doing very well with women, which was usually attributed to height, etc. But as I would get lax, and my game would get sloppy, voila, no attraction out there. So much for height.
Society has come to terms with the fact that male taste in women is nothing but a base instinct craving signs of health and high fertility: youth, beauty, slim bodies, buxom breasts, and tight labia.
ReplyDeleteJust because you don't care about a woman's personality doesn't mean nobody else does.
The one and only thing that men want from a woman is the prospect of healthy offspring.
I don't even want children.
Alkibiades:
Great post, but you know people will always prefer their illusion that they are unique. I'm amused and yet tired of hearing 'not all women' fall for game, or 'good girls' aren't attracted to guys who date lots of women.
You're amused and yet tired of hearing irrefutable facts? That sounds worrying, maybe you should seek professional help.
"Looks don't matter" is a pretty lie told by women who want to get their hooks into rich old men. It is further perpetuated by average guys who don't want to be bothered with dieting and going to the gym.
ReplyDelete@anonymous 3:15.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree.
11 minutes, obviously, I don't know the difference between the two (looks and appearance)
ReplyDelete"Looks" is defined as the whole of all bodily features. It is what a man is born with and women are often surprised in how much the men they end up with lack in that department.
"Appearance" is defined by a man's posture, body language, even clothing. It closely resembles "status" as in what a man represents. If a man's appearance signals that he is a weak pushover, no normal woman would ever get happily on her knees to make him happy.
Tall women have to make compromise, so they accept to date short men.
Compelling possibility.
I have serious doubts, however, that women ever "compromise" when it comes to sex. There are too many men out there who never get a piece of the cake. Most women agree on that one:
No sex is better than bad sex.
@John & Xamuel - interesting idea about women choosing "surface" traits in men with symbolic value. You got a the reference?
I'm amused and yet tired of hearing 'not all women' fall for game, or 'good girls' aren't attracted to guys who date lots of women.
Most of these guys will find out the hard way one day.
But as I would get lax, and my game would get sloppy, voila, no attraction out there. So much for height.
... and any other feature of "looks". I frequently hang out with guys who would easily get on the cover of fitness magazines, and they have the very same experience:
While "on nights" will give the illusion that women go after their handsomeness (and boy, do they go after them), the very same guy will not get as much as an eye contact during dreaded "off nights".
Just because you don't care about a woman's personality doesn't mean nobody else does.
I never said I don't. Yet I would not even touch a fat ugly old hag even if she has the greatest personality in the world. And neither would you.
I don't even want children.
Your unconscious doesn't care. Or did you cut off your penis?
"Looks don't matter" is a pretty lie ... further perpetuated by average guys who don't want to be bothered with dieting and going to the gym.
You know what gets women to swoon? Guys who know they do not need to put in an effort to get into her pants.
Go to the gym and sweat. For your health and a longer, more energetic life. There are many good reasons. But women ain't one of them.
I never said I don't.
ReplyDeleteThat is exactly what you said.
Your unconscious doesn't care. Or did you cut off your penis?
My "unconscious" has no say in the matter, because I very clearly do not want children.
You're mixing up ultimate and proximal causes. Your Darwinian analysis deals with ultimate causes - but how do we get there? Freud dealt with mechanisms (whether accurately or inaccurately). There is no contradiction between what you said and what Freud said, as long as Freud's mechanisms don't lead to men generally preferring non-fertile women or women generally preferring low-status men.
ReplyDeleteClearly there are complicated mechanisms involved, because they go wrong so often (homosexuality, pedophilia, etc).
I note that you invoke the unconscious - a concept most closely associated with Freud - when arguing with another commenter.
Your Darwinian analysis deals with ultimate causes - but how do we get there?
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting and still open question. Behavioral genetics is still in its infancy.
I note that you invoke the unconscious - a concept most closely associated with Freud - when arguing with another commenter.
Just because Freud coined the term (the proper translation would be "subconscious") doesn't mean one cannot investigate cognitive mechanisms that happen in the absence of awareness.
Some scientists have tried to avoid the problem by calling it "subliminal", but that term is even more loaded with a troubled past.
"...I would not even touch a fat ugly old hag even if she has the greatest personality in the world..."
ReplyDeleteFunny, as a female I feel the exact same way about men. A guy can have the greatest personality EVER, but if he looks like a gnome I can't be attracted to him sexually.
Looks don't matter to most women in the sense that a man doesn' have to fit a conventional attractiveness standard. Notice the movie stars women find sexy. It's not just the men who are young and hot with hard bodies.
The women men find hot are universally young and supple with a certain look, e.g. Maxim women or playmates.
It's funny to hear short (excuse me, "petite") women brag about being the "most desirable". As a 5' 9 woman with a naturally very buxom, hourglass shape figure, I haven't had many complaints about my height from either tall or short men. The only tall men whom I've seen only selecting short women are the socially awkward goober types (sorry, the more cerebral, less socially developed types).
ReplyDeleteThere is ample evolutionary evidence that men inherit their height from the *mother*, so if men desire taller offspring, that would explain both short and taller males preference or bias toward taller women.
The taller men who've pursued me and other women of my type tend to be very secure with themselves, with no need to follow the dictates of corporate consumerism, like what the metrosexual wanna be alpha male editors of Maxim or Playboy tell them they are supposed to desire (prepubescent shaped women with fake tits and androgynous hips).
This whole thread reminds me of being around nouveau riche people who role play what they think wealthier, privileged people do (silly conspicuous consumer crap like bathing in champagne, flashing 'bling bling' or dissing less privileged people). Sigh..........
p.s from 8:06-
ReplyDeleteI know this thread is as old as most forms of dirt.
Everybody mates with or attempts to mate with the person who closest resembles their ideal physiological/emotional complement; their yin to yang, or vice versa.
Human nature and the knee jerk reaction toward herd conformity is ruthlessly exploited by the cynical 1%, who make marketing decisions for the rest, who then follow along dutifully like good little consumer debt zombies from mega-mall hell.
People who are only concerned with their image and how their status *appears* rather than the actual substance of reality deserve what they so often get; a lifetime of constipated, callow alcoholic trophy dolls, blow up dolls, rich men with bad breath, and medicated metrosexuals with spray-on tans. Poetic justice from the universe, hallelujah!
p.p.s-
ReplyDeleteoops, my bad.... meant to say "human nature and the knee jerk reaction toward her conformity *are* ruthless exploited". ARE, not "is", heh-heh......
p.p.p.s-
ReplyDeleteaw, fcuk it, sheesh..........
I somewhat disagree with this article. Most of the stuff the author says is absolutely true (i.e. women loving men of status) but he downplays how much women unconsciously correlate a man's height and his looks to his status. Check out this link for instance:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR3YR1ZTonc
Gnotis Auton reasons that if you have enough game, then height and looks really shouldnt matter (that is, as long as you portray high enough social status). But women consciously and unconsciously assess EVERY element of a man's appearance, including his physical attributes, in order to gauge his status. Some women, by default, will not date certain men of higher than average status just because of his looks or his shorter stature, regardless of his game (I can testify on this). In other words, not every woman on the planet will sleep with you just cause you have great game. Some women (especially beautiful ones) will pick a more handsome man over you if you both have relatively the same social status as each other. Therefore, unless you are a famous celebrity or rockstar, it's unlikely that very beautiful women will like you just cause you exhibit confidence and are a great flirt.
I'm just being a realist, sorry.
PUAs don't like to admit it this though, because it doesn't sell. Telling guys that they are too ugly to get 10s and 9s HBs so they have to settle for 7s and 6s wouldn't be as appealing to all the frustrated chumps out there.
So is this all an idea/assessment made by some random citizen or is their someone specifically well known that has come to this conclusion?
ReplyDeleteYou have a kernel of the truth here, but women do prefer men that they are physically attracted to, it's just that other qualities can outweigh, or make less important his physical appearance. You are getting a little carried away with the assumption that the physical appearance of the man is unimportant.
ReplyDelete'women don't care about looks' = a lie created by unattractive, insecure men...
ReplyDeleteThe thing that women haven't worked out is that high status males make crappy partners and often poor lovers. They are too interested in their careers and find it too easy to sleep around with women who are attracted to their money or power that they will never be a truly loving faithful partner. This is the trade off some women can make. It's nothing more than prostitution. It also has much to do with the divorce rate.These guys find it easy to trade a wife in for a younger model. Result is a lot of fucked up kids.
ReplyDeleteThe thing no one has stressed is that whilst for some women this choice of a high status male is a conscious decision for many other women they don't even realise why they are so attracted to short fat rich men. Even women who are past child bearing age are susceptible.
Perhaps women when choosing a mate should take into consideration whether the high status male is gonna stick around long enough for the children they make together to be brought up in a loving secure home. Or if she is going to be happy to screw him for every penny she can get with a divorce.